About Research..

History and philosophy, meridian theory, clinical application and general discussions

Needles at 10 paces...

Postby markaird » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:06 am

Well said Pete! Who said satire has no place in paramedical discussion forums? Probably all the people who can't spell "satire"... and as for "Crazy Carole" - sorry Carole, your decades of experience practising, teaching and researching acupuncture don’t lend you any credibility here. An anonymous poster has labelled you, so your sanity is hereby revoked along with ours. For God's sake, woman - you believe in Qi! You must be loony!! :wink:

Nevertheless, in the interests of preventing further aspersions being cast on the soundness of posters, I remind my fellows that "This particular forum is for posting and discussing critical evaluations of published acupuncture research" (or so the sticky I wrote when starting this forum continues to state). We seem to have taken a detour and ended up in Stupidville.

That notwithstanding, there really need not be such a divide between those who believe research, particularly the clinical trial, is a worthy and valuable pursuit, and those who practice acupuncture, be it for profit or otherwise. Indeed there are people who tread in both camps. If we're going to squabble over different understandings of the need and design of research, someone really has to have a go at these 'fence sitters'! They're getting away scot-free!!

I am of course joking. However, the alacrity with which some antagonistic comments have been made on this forum is really not a huge surprise - I remember the difficulty I had practising acupuncture for a living when I was simultaneously questioning the same practice in the lab. It's a difficult line to walk, and to my discredit or not, I was unable to balance both views, and made a choice about which mindset to lock-in. Had I chosen to be a practitioner rather than a researcher, I would have had difficulty listening to people such as me questioning the fundamental theory and techniques (I still don't believe people can find acupoints with any consistency using the techniques I've tested, and I don't believe qi is real). I might, however, have skipped this forum if I wasn't prepared to have my beliefs challenged.

As I have already reminded all, this forum is to discuss research. So the views expressed by researchers were really intended for those educated in research, or the very least those interested in research findings. If one does not believe sensible research in this field can be carried out, I don't think one can contribute sensibly to the Research Critiques forum. I doubt many of my views about acupuncture theory and practice would be welcome, nor appropriate, in some of the more treatment-oriented fora...

Ultimately, everything we know and/or believe about acupuncture is the result of research. Techniques may differ over time - we'd like to think contemporary research design allows us to develop theories without spending several hundred years observing reactions, and killing the odd patient - but research is what informed our classical and traditional resources. Practitioners who choose to ignore advances in knowledge do so not only at their own peril, but also to that of their patients, the practice of acupuncture, TCM, and perhaps all complementary and alternative methods.

The next time a patient comes into your clinic and asks "What can acupuncture do for me?", are you going to be able to give your opinion based on all the resources available to you, or will you decide for him that he can only be informed according to the views of your favourite text book or guru?
markaird
 

Postby Carole Rogers » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:28 am

Great post Mark and I agree - we are all way off topic in this forum. I do think however that it is not a bad place to discuss research itself. It gives everyone a chance to air their views and those who think that the 'art' of acupuncture is damaged by research may start to understand some other viewpoints.

I like to make the point - which I have done many times before - that if we don't design and carry out good research then others, with no knowledge of the 'art', will do the research for us and do it badly. Do I have to quote chapter and verse to support this statement? :roll:

Meee! Loooony? How could you? :shock: I don't 'believe' in qi. I just think that until a better model (theory) comes along it's the only thing we have on which to make informed clinical decisions! Don't forget, they got to the moon despite using the wrong theory and with computers less powerful than your mobile phone!
Carole
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Postby markaird » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:50 am

The moon landings were staged!!

Just a minute, the President is calling me on my mobile telephone machine...

8)
markaird
 

Postby Luke Rickards » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:38 am

Mark,

I think this is one of the best posts on this forum.

And thanks for introducing me to the word alacrity. It's a beauty.
Last edited by Luke Rickards on Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Carole Rogers » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:36 am

Oh dear, the conspiricy theorists are at it again. And to think I gave my sons the day off from school so that they could watch the "one small step for man..."!
Carole
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Postby Glen Martin » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:08 pm

Thanks for such a clear post on your views and personal experiences Mark.

There are still some points I'd like to raise with you.

Damien Ryan wrote an excellent paper which was published in the Australian Journal of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine (vol.1 issue.1); "The Use of Evidence in Acupuncture Clinical Practice". I assume you've read it. I got a lot out of this paper, learnt some things and also felt my views as a clinician were represented fairly aswell. One point he raises is the lack of clinically relevant research available. The way you present your views supporting evidence based research suggests that there is an enormous amount of clinically useful research available, making it unprofessional or even perilous for practitioners to ignore. This coupled with your continued use of the term "guru" in its derogatory sense, I assume in place of a regular word such as teacher, or mentor, gives me the impression that you just don't like, or harbour bitterness toward succesful traditional acupuncturists? is this the case? I hope it's not, because clinicians and researchers are going have to come together if we are to see clinically relevant research produced. If I knew you personally, I may be able to read between the lines and see that some of your statements are meant as a joke, but I don't know you so I can only read your words seriously.

I believe practitioners in general try, and do their best for patients. When (and if) evidence based research begins to produce information/findings that clinicians see as relevant to the care and treatment of their patients, they will turn more attention to it. Conversely, if research is produced that doesn't resonate with the real life experiences of clinicians, it will be ignored. In this matter, it is clear that it's better for researchers to have had substantial clinical experience of their own, or next best, very close relationships with as many experienced practitioners from as many backgrounds as possible. I understand your comments about the difficulty of simultaneously practicing and researching acupuncture, but I urge you to re-examine your attitude towards practicing acupuncturists. Most clinicians also question the fundamental concepts of acupuncture, and search/research all aspects of their application in a clinical setting. Many will have had a number of twists and turns in their views as further experience has been gained. Ultimately, if patients are getting better, consistently, whatever that practitioner is doing is on the right track.

Regards,
Glen
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