Qi Gong and Acupuncture

Discuss the pharmacodynamics of raw and patent herbs, nutrition and diet and other therapies

BIANZHENG OF INTERNAL CULTIVATION

Postby Li » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:48 pm

Acupunk wrote:For me I feel as if though Bruce lee had grasped it but not through thousands of years of time tested experience. So it was as if his pressure(qi) was to high for his body to handle. Thus he was like a vb body with a rolls royce engine. They must both be developed with respect to each other.


That's a beautiful summary Acupunk of my views on Bruce too. Even in martial arts, Yi/personal signification and Fang/past community knowledge are good to be balanced.

I feel this is also potentially one of the problems with avant-garde approaches to therapy, ie. modern "energy" work, not just those derived from Eastern lineages, when they try to completely supercede those lineages and work off only a relatively superficial grasp of them. The fact that "it feels good" immediately is not the whole picture, and no assurance at all that we haven't detrimentally drawn on other things underneath that we have yet learnt to see, and the consequences of which we have yet learnt to connect. That's where the accumulated "thousands of years of time tested experience" comes in handy (if one goes to the effort to learn how to interpret them anyway).

The "It works" defence is not only dodgy from an objective scientific standpoint, it is also problematic from a classicist's point of view. There is a price to be paid for the many benefits of internal training... even if it seems to "feel good" immediately, have no doubt it can be dangerous stuff that demands respect and careful discrimination in what one chooses to do (and with whom). Remember, Qi is "energy", not energy, and (if nothing else) flowing through more Qi can burn more Jing. Qigong and meditation and martial arts and chakra work and "letting go of emotions", etc are not always benign, Chinese culture (popularly through literature and mythology) still understands that there are all sorts of ugly turns that can be taken. And I can think of few better ways to see this ourselves than a continually wider and deeper embrace of the existing literary tradition.

Personally, I'd be happier to see CM in the hands of modern scientific scepticism than those who believe classics but don't really try to deeply understand them (or at least try to stay in healthy contact with those that do). Even if a great deal of potential is lost in this strategy, at least modern scientific scepticism, in avoiding this side of traditional knowledge, also steers away from the (subtle, thus even more influential) dangers.
Guiding without pulling makes the process of learning gentle; urging without suppressing takes the process of learning easy; and opening the way without leading the students to the place makes them think for themselves.
-Confucius
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Re: BIANZHENG OF INTERNAL CULTIVATION

Postby Mark Phillips » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:06 pm

Personally, I'd be happier to see CM in the hands of modern scientific scepticism than those who believe classics but don't really try to deeply understand them (or at least try to stay in healthy contact with those that do). Even if a great deal of potential is lost in this strategy, at least modern scientific scepticism, in avoiding this side of traditional knowledge, also steers away from the (subtle, thus even more influential) dangers.


Li, you seem to be aware of particular dangers and warn us against the "It works" and "It feels good" thinking. Stating it simply, how would this danger apply to the application of advanced systems in martial arts and CM?
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Postby Li » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:31 pm

Well warning against the dangers of over-reliance of such stances anyway, as I think they are perfectly appropriate in (my favourite word) context.

Gotta go, be back later with more.

Cheers
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Guiding without pulling makes the process of learning gentle; urging without suppressing takes the process of learning easy; and opening the way without leading the students to the place makes them think for themselves.
-Confucius
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Postby Mark Phillips » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:40 am

I think I understand what you are getting at Li.

I believe I was the first to use the expression "it works" in relation to a discussion on pulse diagnosis. Although taken out of context on occasions, the expression is quite valid. Unless we duplicate and apply theory successfully in practice - and the judgement on that will come from your patients - we may find we can't pay the clinic rent. You may then be heard saying "It doesn't work" and decide then to study chiropractics or physiotherapy instead.

If you have never felt the excitement of seeing a person recover from serious disease through your intervention with a needle, then you will probably not understand the emotion of "It works".
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Postby Acupunk » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:57 am

Even in martial arts, Yi/personal signification and Fang/past community knowledge are good to be balanced.

INdeed and it makes me think of the pioneers who first ate the red berries, to die , but to serve as a lesson tothe rest of the community. Or the Curies, who again skated the edge between discovery and suicide. In every culture it is those who pushed the envelope, whether raging oceans, investigating plants, or discovering internal medicine, that bring us new discoveries but also areas to tread even more carefully.

The fact that "it feels good" immediately is not the whole picture, and no assurance at all that we haven't detrimentally drawn on other things underneath that we have yet learnt to see, and the consequences of which we have yet learnt to connect. That's where the accumulated "thousands of years of time tested experience" comes in handy (if one goes to the effort to learn how to interpret them anyway).

To true, i have encoutered two cases in Australia recently where this has happened, not just through practice but also by reading co called classics but getting the stuff stuck in their heads. IN china there are clinics devoted to fixing people who have injured themselves by doing Qi gong incorrectly.

I also have seen a quite extraodianary sight in the city of an Asian Homeless man who was walking around the place, sometimes backwards, appearing crazy to others. Upon closer inspection I noticed he was repeating different moves from wild goose qi gong, and other qi gong related exercises but like they were stuck on a record loop. To much qi in the brain causes shen disturbence. When people do not bring their qi from the third eye(pineal gland) down to the dan tian. I think this is one of the keys to either basic or advanced training. Root yourself in the earth to prevent the illusion of grandiuer or floating ff into the heavens/ or hells.
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Postby Li » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:58 am

Nice one Mark. I think you are right and you were indeed misunderstood a little by what you originally meant by "It works", but at the same time that Luke had a good cause to be concerned with how it can be overused as a legitimation for everything in alternative health and encourage anti-intellectualism.

If you have never felt the excitement of seeing a person recover from serious disease through your intervention with a needle, then you will probably not understand the emotion of "It works".


Sounds very cool! I have only approached something like it I think in my taiji and meditation when a certain connection between a hidden cause and a negative health/life consequence I have refused to take responsibility for, out of nowhere, becomes blindingly obvious, or when the kaleidoscope of everyday experience clicks in to suddenly make a puzzling passage in a sutra make perfect sense. I hope to be able to do as you do Mark, to help others in a similar way somehow someday (maybe even not through CM), if it is my destiny...

IN china there are clinics devoted to fixing people who have injured themselves by doing Qi gong incorrectly.


Acupunk, I can also confirm this from the sources I have read/talked with. I'm not sure what the Mandarin/Pin yin for this sort of phenomena is, but in Canto it sounds like "Zhou For Yup More" - this is something always talked about in popular stories about people that do qigong/martial arts/mediation but the qi goes to the wrong place, and something like a short circuit of the brain occurs. Basically extremely internally powerful wackos.

If something has the power for good, it also has the power for bad. And it doesn't have to be as obvious as becoming a crazy wild goose qi gong guy.... I think it can often be as simple as becoming more susceptible to cult like unthinkingness (something we Chinese can/have fallen for a lot).

This also means that when we have a patient under our care that we have a tremendous responsibility to be as rigorous with our studies and integrity as a practitioner as we can be, because profound (if subtle) harm is still possible with the best of intentions. We are not dangerous because "energy" doesn't exist and we are all just waffle. I think we could be dangerous because it does exist (even if we are unclear on definitions) and I fear we are often a bit too fast and loose with it all. Just be careful out there everyone!
Guiding without pulling makes the process of learning gentle; urging without suppressing takes the process of learning easy; and opening the way without leading the students to the place makes them think for themselves.
-Confucius
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