Qi Gong and Acupuncture

[Tim Cleary]

First, mostly..
I think he said that for some people, the second form is better, but mostly first..

Third is too much..

I guess even the bit of the form where you extend a crane-type palm and pull back a fingertips-out palm would be helpful.. I didn't get very far through the WC forms- I thought the school I went to was mostly teaching the wrong ideas- and my friend, who teaches there, agreed.. Anyway, it is very much like a Qi Gong anyway, even though the phrase isn't used in Wing Chun to my knowledge.. (I think the whole WC system is Qi Gong based, but that may just be me and my limited experience..)

Tim

PS: A Wing Chun punch can be a beautiful thing to be hit by- very powerful...

[Acupunk]

Haha Wing chun forms eh, perhaps it is sil lum tao (little thought) as this is one of the less dynamic forms compared to chum kil and bill jee which involve eye strikes and elbows. NOt to reassuring for a patient. Whilst at the same time incorporates inhalation and exhalation to push or draw in qi with intent as the co-pilot to breath. I would see how this would aid tonification and sedation using well.... yi and breath.

"I didn't get very far through the WC forms- I thought the school I went to was mostly teaching the wrong ideas"
THis may be due to Yip mans passing many different systems in order to disguise the true system. MAny systems still retain "modified" techiniques which are impractical and border on stupidity. Having said that deflection, and simultaneous block and strike are ideas that work in other systems i have studied. Let chi sao, and crossing hand speak for what works and what doesnt. UNfortunately Mcdojo can also be Mckwoon. Shiny and full of preservatives but no real substance.

I think the whole WC system is Qi Gong based, but that may just be me and my limited experience..)

Wing chun is considered an external system by more internal arts but it would be fair to say is in between. Its foundations lie in its forms, which serve as an alphabet with which you can make new words with depending on the situation. However It is also sparring and application based, and in the end people like Bruce lee, never explored its internal aspects but still made it effective.

Tai Qi, Hsing Yi, And Bagua on the other hand are very much Qi gong based and things such as post standing, elemental palms, as well as Dao yin are staple of most schools. From experience though Tai chi practitioners here mostly do it for health, where as the hsing yi are very effective in a shorter time(almost like wing chun -very linear but more internal), and bagua very much so but after a longer time. Perhaos a BAgua Practitioner could walk around the table in circles using the patients dantian as the central focus.

P.S You know a real martial artist when they actually enjoy getting punched in the head . JUst not on the nose!

[dragonmonk]

I am not so sure that

people like Bruce lee, never explored its internal aspects

I have read a lot of what Bruce Lee wrote and it seems to me that the internal work that Bruce Lee did with martial art was more aimed towards the cultivation of realness in mind and body. While not an art of developing internal qi strength, this goes to the foundation of what we are all building on in tai chi, qi gong and other internal arts.

I would say that devotion to 'self actualisation' is just as internal as anything I can think of.

I think that this sums it up:

A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be.
This is the need we may call self-actualization ... It refers to man's
desire for fulfillment, namely to the tendency for him to become
actually in what he is potentially: to become everything that one
is capable of becoming ...
[ Dr Abraham Maslow ]

If this is not internal work, then what is?

Anyways....maybe I am a bit off track with the thread here....but I am a huge fan of Bruce Lee....

[Acupunk]

Dragonmonk I think you are 100% right in the sense that he developed his Yi comparable to any internal master if not supersceding. BUt INternal masters tend not to overexert themselves, take steroids, lift dead weights or die in their thirties. For me I feel as if though Bruce lee had grasped it but not through thousands of years of time tested experience. So it was as if his pressure(qi) was to high for his body to handle. Thus he was like a vb body with a rolls royce engine. They must both be developed with respect to each other.
He did meditate, but again that works on yi whereas qi gong is cultivation of internal energy.
I am a huge fan of the guy, but see his early death and other factors as learning points that I may not try to emulate. And we have also yet seen a A Jeet Koon Do practitioner come anywhere near his level, indicating replication issues. ANd the whole internal external debate will go on forever, as ying yang teches us there is yin within yang and yang within ying. So whether it be "external" training there wil lbe aspects such as yi and breath. And in "internal" arts there will be external aspects such as a strong muskeloskeletal system( especially tendons and bones)

[Mark Phillips]

I was very delighted to learn that Wing Chun has an internal aspect. After all, it should, as it is one of the five styles to escape the burning of the Shaolin Temple.

The sil lum tao has an internal qi movement and breathing technique - although, generally speaking, this is not the place to discuss such things. It is enough to say that tan sau and wu sau represent yin (seeking via laogung) and yang (returning) respectively.

It's OK to be hit by a fist (if you have to be) but don't get slapped with laogung by someone who trains internally. It's very bad for your health!

[Acupunk]

It's OK to be hit by a fist (if you have to be) but don't get slapped with laogung by someone who trains internally. It's very bad for your health!

INdeed there is a saying that the best fighters are the best healers. Dim mak and healing seem to come from supreme knowledge on how the body works. Laogong is also a point of emmision in therapuetic Qi gong. Also a point of emmision in energy disruption techniques. Generally though these would only be done by people with intent to kill or seriously disrupt. There are herbal decoctions and therapeutic protocols in case of such damage, but on very high levels of training.

After training with a person from a different style who studied medical science, he decribed how after a slap, it actually vibrates the cytoplasm into a point of disruption so they can actually trigger rupture on the microscopic level. Add in some qi, yi and whatever internal what have you, then a palm strike is definately not a nice thing. I remember seeing a sifu i studied with leave a palm mark on the face of a senior student. ALthough i am sure his intent was not to harm.